Ôîðóìû ó Ëèðèêà

[Martellus]

[jey]

Íó, ó Îðòåëèÿ õîòü ïîáëèæå ê Áåëüãèè îíà ðàñïîëàãàåòñÿ.

Ìàðòåëëóñ, à êòî ïåðâûé Áåëüãèéñêóþ ïóñòûíþ â Ñèáèðü îòïðàâèë? È çà ÷òî, èíòåðåñíî.

ÇÛ.À Defertum Caracoranum - ýòî Êàðàêîðóì, ÷òî ëè?

[andY]

Êàðàêîðóì (Caracoran) òàì âíèçó ñëåâà.

[jey]

ïðîñòûì ëîãè÷åñêèì ïóòåì ( ïîéäåì, êîíå÷íî, âìåñòå)

Âîò êàêèå ìíåíèÿ ïðèøëè ïî ðàññûëêå:

Ïðî ïðîëèâ Àíèàí

As to the Strait of Anian, that first appeared in Gastaldi's map of the world,ca. 1562. (Cosmographia Universalis Et Exactissima Juxta Postreman Neoterorum Traditionem. No one is sure of the origin of the name "Anian". There is a little booklet he wrote in which he merely lists the boundaries of Siberia and Mangi (Mongolia) as bordering the Strait of Anian.
see Shirley, MAPPING OF THE WORLD, entry 107, pl. 92.
Best Wishes,Dee

As rightly stated by Dee, the strait of Anian (Latin: Anian Fretum) first
appeared in Gastaldi's (and others) woodcut map of the world, ca. 1562.
(³Cosmographia Universalis Et Exactissima Juxta Postreman Neotericorum
TraditionemS²). Gastaldi found the name Ania or Anian in the Travels of
Marco Polo (end of XIII cent.), whose Italian edition was published by
Giovanni Battista Ramusio in 1559. There is an adnotated edition of this
particular version of Marco Polo in G.B.Ramusio, Navigazioni e viaggi, ed.
M.Milanesi, vol. III, Torino, Einaudi, 1980, but text and notes are in Italian. I also published a paper on Anian, in Italian and German (Arsarot or Anian? Identità e separazione tra Asia e Nuovo Mondo nella cartografia del Cinquecento, in Il Nuovo Mondo nella coscienza italiana e tedesca del
Cinquecento, ed. A.Prosperi e W.Reinhard, Il Mulino, Bologna, 1992
("Quaderni dell'Istituto Storico Italo-Germanico in Trento" n.33, pp.19-50). Trad. ted. Arsarot oder Anian? Identität und Unterscheidung zwischen Asien und der neuen Welt in der Kartographie des 16. Jahrhunderts 1500-1570), in Die Neue Welt im Bewusstsein der Italiener und Deutschen des 16. Jahrhunderts, Berlin, Duncker und Humblot, 1993, pp.15-67). The original Ania of Marco Polo was Annam or Tonkin (Vietnam), but Gastaldi - wo worked with and for Ramusio - misplaced the site, giving the name to a supposed strait between Asia and America, somewhere North of Japan, and to the nearby ³Ania regio² (see Gastaldi¹s map ³Terza parte ell¹Asia², 1561). The name stuck: Ortelius and Mercator used it, making its fortune for more than a century. There is no correspondence at all, of course, with the strait of Bering.

Cornelis Wytfliet, who published the first atlas of maps specifically
devoted to the Americas (first French edition 1597), went as far as naming
Alaska ANIAN REGNVM.

Roberto Mayer


Marica brought up the conventional answer to the puzzle. But has
evidence been found that Gastaldi mistook Marco Polo's Annam, which
Polo clearly places in Southeast Asia, for his strait, which he clearly states in Universale Descrittione del Mondo, abutted Mangi.
I am not necessarily arguing, but am truly interested in knowing. Several months of work in 1991 failed to find any reason for the conflation other than the names.
Since Gastaldi, well-respected by Ramusio, was producing (along with others) his world map, after making previous maps that showed Asia and America connected, this error seems rather careless of him. Perhaps the group that produced the world map was a committee and they voted on it? We all know what can happen in that case.
Dee

Âñå ññûëàþòñÿ íà Ìàðêî Ïîëî è ïåðåïóòàâøåãî åãî îïèñàíèå îêîëîâüåòíàìñêîãî ïðîëèâà êàðòîãðàôà, îòïðàâèâøåãî åãî â äàëåêóþ ñåâåðíóþ ññûëêó. ×òî-òî íå âÿæåòñÿ ñîâåðøåííî - êàê íå áûë áû ïüÿí êàðòîãðàô, çàñóíóòü ñèå íà ñåâåð, î÷åíü òðóäíî. Íà ìîå èìõî, êîíå÷íî.



Ñ Áåëüãèéñêîé ïóñòûíåé âîîáùå òðàãåäèÿ êàêàÿ-òî :

The Desert of Belgia is also the Desert of Lop. Usually it is accompanied by little devils and a legend in Latin along the lines of "People believe it is inhabited by devils".
Best Wishes,Dee.

(Desert of Lop - ýòî Ãîáè)

Belgian is a mountain, the place of origin of Mongols or Tartars, following
the Medieval tradition; is has been identified with mount Bulgan, in
Northern Mongolia, from where the river Orchon flows. This name is in not in Marco Polo: it is to be found, for the first time as far as I know, in
the Fleur des Histoires des parties d¹Orient written at the beginning of
XIVth cent. by the Armenian monk Hethum of Corycos (Hayton Armeno). The text was published in many Latin and French versions, usually in association with the Travels of Marco Polo. Ramusio published an Italian version (Historia dei Tartari di Hayton Armeno) in the volume cited above. For Marco Polo the place of origin of the Mongols was Bargu, the valley of the river Barguzin, on the East side of lake Bajkal: Gastaldi, following Polo, has always Bargu in his maps, never Belgian. Earlier cartographers, on the contrary, made use of variants of the name Belgian (Bergi in Ruysch 1507, then in Finaeus 1531 and his imitator Vopell; Bergia in Franciscus Monachus 1527 ca.); the form Belgian was preferred by Mercator for his map of 1569, where he made a desert of a mountain: ³Desertum de Belgian magnum arenosum et sterile².

Saluti
Marica Milanesi

( Îò àðìÿíñêîãî ìîíàõà - ýòî âïîëíå âåðîÿòíî )


Ïîêà âåí÷àåò îáìåí ìíåíèÿìè êðèê äóøè

But does any one know why it's called Desert of Belgia?

Johan Deckers Belgium

Ïîñìîòðèì, âñïëûâåò ëè ÷òî-íèáóäü åùå .

[Ñåâåð]

à òî åù¸ åñòü ÂÅËÈÊÀß ËÅÃÅÍÄÀÐÍÀß ÒÀÉÍÀ î Áåëîâîäüå:

Ëåãåíäàðíàÿ ñòðàíà, ãäå, ïî íàðîäíûì ïðåäñòàâëåíèÿì, ðàñïðîñòðàíåííûì ñðåäè ñòàðîîáðÿäöåâ, ñîõðàíèëîñü äðåâëåïðàâîñëàâíîå áëàãî÷åñòèå â ïåðâîçäàííîì âèäå.

íå çíàþ, ïðè ÷åì òóò Áàëòèéñêîå ìîðå, à âî â ýòîì Áåëîâîäüå ÿ òðè ãîäà ïðîæèë.... êàæäûé ðåáåíîê ýòó ëåãåíäó çíàåò è ñòàðîîáðÿä÷åñêèå ñêèòû èñêàòåëåé Áåëîâîäüÿ ïî òîò äåíü åù¸ â òàéãå íàõîäèëè...

Èçâåñòíî, ÷òî ëåãåíäû î ñòðàíå Áåëîâîäüå è ïîèñêàõ åå çàðîäèëèñü èìåííî â ñòàðîîáðÿä÷åñêîé ñðåäå. Íî îêàçûâàåòñÿ, ÷òî ó ñòàðîîáðÿäöåâ ïîìèìî ëåãåíä áûëà êîíêðåòíàÿ êíèãà ñ êàðòàìè, ïîäðîáíî îïèñûâàþùàÿ ïóòü â ýòó áëàãîñëîâåííóþ çåìëþ. Íàçûâàëàñü ýòà êíèãà “Ïóòåøåñòâåííèê” è áûëà îíà î÷åíü ðàñïðîñòðàíåííîé ñðåäè ñòàðîîáðÿäöåâ Îáâû â 1840-1850 ãîäàõ.  ëåãåíäàðíîé ñòðàíå Áåëîâîäüå ïî ïðåäñòàâëåíèÿì ñòàðîîáðÿäöåâ ñîõðàíèëîñü äðåâëåïðàâîñëàâíîå áëàãî÷åñòèå â ïåðâîçäàííîì âèäå: ñ áëàãîâåðíûì ãîñóäàðåì è ñâÿòåéøèì ïàòðèàðõîì âî ãëàâå. Ïðåäïîëàãàëîñü, ÷òî Áåëîâîäüå íàõîäèòñÿ íà Âîñòîêå, ïî îäíèì âåðñèÿì “Ïóòåøåñòâåííèêà” â ãîðàõ Òèáåòà, ïî äðóãèì - â Îïîíüñêîì (ßïîíñêîì) öàðñòâå.  1844 ãîäó ó îäíîãî èç êðåñòüÿí ×åëâèíñêîé âîëîñòè, áåæàâøåãî èç èìåíèÿ íà ïîèñêè Áåëîâîäüÿ è ïîéìàííîãî óæå çà Ïåðìüþ, áûë íàéäåí ðóêîïèñíûé “Ïóòåøåñòâåííèê”. Êàê ïèñàë Ôåäîð Âîëåãîâ: “Ãëàâíîå ñîäåðæàíèå îíîãî çàêëþ÷àåòñÿ â îïèñàíèè ïóòè ÷åðåç Ñèáèðü è Êèòàéñêèå âëàäåíèÿ äî Òèáåòà, ãäå íàõîäèòñÿ áóäòî áû ìíîãî äðåâíèõ õðèñòèàíñêèõ öåðêâåé, åñòü ïàòðèàðõ Àíòèîõèéñêîãî ïîñòàâëåíèÿ, òàêæå ìèòðîïîëèò è åïèñêîïû ðîññèéñêèå, óäàëèâøèåñÿ Ëåäîâèòûì ìîðåì íà êîðàáëÿõ èç Ñîëîâåöêîé îáèòåëè âî âðåìÿ ãîíåíèé íà ðàñêîëüíèêîâ”.  “Ïóòåøåñòâåííèêå” óòâåðæäàëîñü, ÷òî â Áåëîâîäüå “ïðàâîñëàâíûì æèòüå ïðèâîëüíîå”, è ó æèòåëåé òîé äàëåêîé ñòðàíû “çëàòà è ñåðåáðà íå åñòü ÷èñëà, äîðîãîãî áèñåðà è êàìåíèÿ äðàãîöåííîãî âåñüìà ìíîãî”. Ñêîëüêî ñòðîãàíîâñêèõ êðåñòüÿí ñ ìå÷òîþ î ñ÷àñòüå è ñïðàâåäëèâîñòè îòïðàâëÿëèñü íà ïîèñêè ëåãåíäàðíîé ñòðàíû, ñåé÷àñ óñòàíîâèòü óæå íåâîçìîæíî. Ðàññëåäîâàíèå, ïðîâåäåííîå ñòðîãàíîâñêîé àäìèíèñòðàöèåé, ïîêàçàëî, ÷òî âñå ñáåæàâøèå (à èõ ïî èìåþùèìñÿ àðõèâíûì äàííûì îêîëî 20 ÷åëîâåê) áûëè ñòàðîîáðÿäöàìè. Èíòåðåñíî îòìåòèòü, ÷òî ýòî áûëè â îñíîâíîì ìîëîäûå ìóæ÷èíû â âîçðàñòå îò 23 äî 39 ëåò. Îíè çàðàíåå è âåñüìà òùàòåëüíî ãîòîâèëèñü ê ïîáåãó, èìåëè ïðè ñåáå íàëè÷íûå äåíüãè, âûðó÷åííûå íàêàíóíå îò ïðîäàæè ëîøàäåé è ñåíà. Àäìèíèñòðàöèÿ ïðèøëà ê âûâîäó, ÷òî áåãëåöû îòïðàâèëèñü “äëÿ îòûñêàíèÿ ïðèâîëüíûõ äëÿ ñåáÿ ìåñò”, à Âîëåãîâ íàïðÿìóþ ñâÿçûâàë ýòîò ïîáåã ñ ðàñïðîñòðàíåíèåì ñðåäè êðåñòüÿí “Ïóòåøåñòâåííèêà”.

ïåðâîèñòî÷íèê ÑÎÊÐÎÂÅÍÍÎÅ ÑÊÀÇÀÍÈÅ Î ÁÅËÎÂÎÄÜÅ - âñåì ÷èòàòü!

à âîò ýòî:
ìíå ëè÷íî íàïîìèíàåò êîå ÷òî

[Martellus]

[jey]

Âîîáùåì, ïîíÿòíî ìíåíèå, ÷òî Áåëüãèéñêàÿ ïóñòûíÿ - ýòî áàñíÿ , âûòåêàþùàÿ èç Áóëãàí=Áåëãàí=Áàðãó è êîðíè åå èäóò îò àðìÿíñêèõ ìîíàõîâ.
Âðîäå ñ íåé ðàçîáðàëèñü, ñ Àíèàíîì åùå ïîñìîòðèì äàëüíåéøåå ðàçâèòèå.

[Martellus]

[Ñåâåð]

[Martellus]

[Ñåâåð]

Áåëîâîäüå íàéäåíî!

êñòàòè, ñòàðîâåðîâ èñêàòåëåé Áåëîâîäüÿ íàçûâàëè ÊÅÐÆÀÊÈ îò ñëîâà êðûæ-ïîëüñê.êðåñò
ò.å. êðåñòîíîñöû?

èíòåðåñíî â ëåòîïèñÿõ Àòëàíòèäû åñòü ÷òî íèáóäü îá ýòîì?

[Martellus]

[I,M,]

[Ñåâåð]

[I,M,]